In Fitness Marketing Law of Hype we talked about over exaggeration and how some products or services will do great in the beginning only to find themselves in trouble after the hype wears off.
Now on to Fitness Marketing Law of Hype Part 2
S*** if this goes the way it’s going it might run as long as “Cheers” ;)
Nothing is better than some good old competition. There are two types of people in this world 1) The type that crumbles in competition ie: Lebron James in the 4th quarter 2) The type that rises to the occasion and actually performs better under pressure ie: Michael Jordan. We see this everyday in sports, life and business.
Competition is ESSENTIAL for human improvement and advancement. It gives us fuel to push harder.
One of the 8 life forces that is part of the human’s “hard drive” is SUPERIORITY
After all this is EXACTLY why we fought our way out of the jungle and are on top of the food chain.
We beat Dinosaurs, Lions, Tigers and creatures that are much bigger, stronger and faster thanI
If your business was the only game in town. You don’t have to be that great because you are the ONLY choice.
What if there were one car company say Honda…..
If that was the case then your beloved Honda Accord would cost 100K and would spend most of it’s time in the shop.
I have been in business in the Chino Hills area now for over 12 years.
So when I heard that another boot camp was voted #1…….
It naturally got me a little curious so I had to investigate it since in my 12 years living in the area I have never heard
of such a thing.
Hey more power to them if that was the case. But ………..
The video below shows you my findings.
My dear colleagues this is EXACTLY why the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) is cracking down so hard on the fitness industry.
Again for the millionth time THIS IS THE INFORMATION AGE
TRANSPARENCY IS NOT AN OPTION IT’S A MUST. PEOPLE WILL FIND OUT ABOUT YOU IF YOU’RE MISREPRESENTING YOURSELF.
I encourage all of you to stand against foolish marketing methods, hype, and just sizzle with no steak anywhere in site.
I encourage all of you to STAND for something and not be afraid to stand against anything or anyone that violates your “core values”.
How are you going to create a category when one doesn’t even exist and vote for yourself?
It’s like going to a bodybuilding show and asking the promoter “I am 80 years old and I know you don’t have a category for 8o and over would you make one so that I could win”
It’s a common joke among bodybuilders when someone keeps talking about how they won their class at a contest ONLY to find out there were no other participants ;)
[vimeo 34576155]
===============================================================================
Hey, everybody. What’s happening? Happy 2012 and I wish you nothing but the best year ever in your business. I’m going to do everything that I can to help you achieve that. This is your boy Sam AKA Seven-figure Sam here and I just wanted to talk to you about a few things today.
Now, remember back in May when I acquired Super-Trainer from Kaiser, my boy Kaiser, the reason I acquired Super-Trainer is because I got tired of all the hype in the industry. I got tired of gurus selling people just BS. So that’s why my tagline was, “No BS, No Hype, Take No Prisoner Fitness Business and Lifestyle,” because I’m going to just tell you exactly what’s good and what’s bad, what’s working for me and what’s not working for me. I seriously couldn’t care less if you buy one thing or another from me because I already make a bunch of money elsewhere. This is just a hobby for me. This is just like a public service announcement blog, if you will.
So whenever I see someone hyping stuff up, it’s my duty to kind of research it and making sure what they say is correct. Now today I got an email that said that there was a boot camp in Chino Hills other than mine that was like number one and I thought about it and I’m like, wait a second. Somebody voted another boot camp number one. That’s weird because I have the most clients. I have the best boot camp for the lowest price. We do close to $400,000, $500,000 a year from the boot camp as far as the gross is concerned.
So it’s impossible. So I wanted to check into that and take a look at it. A matter of fact, I saw this blog post that inspired me. Check this out.
[Video on blog plays]
So you saw that. This number one fitness boot camp in all of Chino Valley. OK, they were voted. So first, let’s do some investigating to see if that’s true. So first thing I went to is I went to their so-called Facebook fan page. So I went to the Facebook fan page and I went in here and let me look. So I went in there and I looked at it and here on December 7th, there was a post here. “Hi Fit Bodies! We’re up for ‘Voters Choice for Top Fitness Boot Camp’. We’re shamelessly asking for your vote. The fitness category is a write-in. Be sure to put Chino Hills Fit Body Boot Camp.”
So there was no category that you can just write in your category so just make a note of that. So then here, somebody here asked them, “I would if I could find it. It just gives me doctors.” Wow! So it wasn’t even a vote for fitness boot camp. So the reply was, “Fitness is a write-in. So you have to write in Chino Hills Fit Body Boot Camp under any category.”
So let’s click on this to see where it goes. So this is the survey that they filled out. So I click on it and boom, here we go. This is the survey they filled out, online survey. Top doctors. “So in our upcoming issue, we will publish in our Readers’ Choice for your favorite doctors.” OK. So this is a doctor survey so that people went in here and put any category. There’s not even a category, what type of practice. There’s not even a category for fitness. Do you see that?
I can technically go in here and fill this in multiple times. So let’s do that again. Like check this out. Doctor name, Sam Bakhtiar, any category; and I guess I’m supposed to put fitness boot camp. Name, Sam, phone number, email, address and city and submit. So the survey was sent. OK? Let’s see if we can do it again. So let’s go back in here and let’s see if we can do another survey. Sam, anything, fitness boot camp, Sam and I guess they don’t require anything else. Let’s see if it can work again. Let’s see if it will take it. Bam!
So I just voted twice, same person. I voted twice, same person. It was no category for fitness. Maybe there was a publication somewhere online that says number one Chino Hills boot camp. So let’s Google it. Let’s Google “number one boot camp in Chino Hills”. Number one Chino Hills boot camp, number one boot camp in Chino Hills.
Let’s see if there’s anything out there that says these guys are number one in Chino Hills. Yes, look at this. So number one listing is me. Number two listing is me and number three listing is me. So there is nowhere in the web anything that was published about a survey about anything with these guys being number one.
Again, this is law of hype. Now here is what is not the law of hype. I’ve had Super-Trainer so far about seven months. So I have Super-Trainer for seven months. Right now if you type in “bootcamp marketing,” bam! I’m number one. I’m number one for bootcamp marketing and I just got in the game less than eight months ago. I’m over PTPower.com and I’m over SteveHochman.com. So that’s not hype. This is real stuff.
So anyway, this is your boy Sam AKA Seven-figure Sam just wanting to show you some hype and if somebody is going out there and then saying, “Oh vote at this and vote at that,” and they’re just hyping things up, remember people can go out there and research your BS. People can go out there and find that and once they found that you lied to them, now people lose trust in you.
What do you think has happened with some of the fitness gurus, why their launches are not going so well anymore? How come people are dropping out of their franchises and all that kind of stuff? It’s because they have lied and they lied and they lied and now nobody trusts them anymore.
So again, if you are going to say you are the number one boot camp or you’re number one in anything, you better go out there and start backing it up.
Now anything that I say I will back it up, bottom line. This is your boy Sam signing off and hopefully have a great 2012. Thank you. [0:07:48]
I think its pathetic to create a category in a doctors online survey to get named best boot camp. When I go to fitness shows I also laugh when someone wins their class when their is no one to compete against.
This isn’t even a legitimate way to vote for the best business. I like how they wrote on their facebook wall to “just write Chino Hills Fit Body Boot Camp in any category ;)”
Didn’t these guys just open up shop just a few months ago? How could they even be voted for anything? Seems like a marketing scheme to scam that community.
I agree 100%, if your going to call yourself the best, you better back it up. Great post Sam!
What a great marketing scam? i guess any business could open shop and call themselves the best.
There is a thing called Karma.
You cannot fool people all of the time. Consumers are sick of all the hype and B/S and this kind of thing gives the industry a bad name.
But customers are smart. they will soon figure out who is the best.
And by the way the best comes from years of hard work and dedication and applying your craft.
Just opening up shop and calling yourself the best without people backing you up and buying votes to prove your claim justs ruins your reputation
It is good that this posts exposes the truth in business. We are a open culture with technology today and the cream will always rise to the top
Like Sam said, you bullshit and you will get exposed sooner or later. Why would you even want to pursue a couple more that way (through a lie)?
When people find out it will cause a lot more damage than good.
It’s another situation where people want to take shortcuts to become the best. Truth is you can’t do that.
Become the best, provide the best service and training and be a beast at marketing so then you can show people how great you are.
Not necessarily easy but it will reap the rewards.
Or you could try to take shortcuts, lie and get exposed.
This kind of bs is right in line with using someone else’s testimonials to promote your business. It’s shady and unethical. People do this because they don’t have the drive necessary to start from NOTHING and truly create something from it. They want to take shortcuts and avoid the sacrifice that separates successful people from the posers. If you want to be voted best bootcamp you need to put your nose to the grindstone and bust ASS making your bootcamp the best AND getting enough people in there to substantiate that claim. If 10 people vote you as top bootcamp that doesn’t mean jack!
The “scarcity mindset” as in Bedros’ mindset will always choose hype over hard work every time. Most people with a scarcity mindset only care about how they look and not “what” they are… and i always bites them on the ass. I always ask the question what will the hype actually get you? More clients? For how long? and will they be recurring? These are tactics invented in the 1980’s by Bally’s Health Clubs… but now you can’t rope people into crazy contracts anymore. Now the reality is if you employ hype, which is actually “lying” you will be found out and you will need to keep “lying” to keep getting customers… the problem with that, especially in a small community like Chno Hills, is that at some point you will exhaust all your lies and wind up closing your doors. And BTW… why the fuck is Bedros showing print ads… in fitness there is absolutely “no” ROI at all with print ads. What a fuckin’ idiot! But that’s another story.
@Rocco,
I have advertised in that same publication for 12 years and as a matter of fact the owner of the magazine and I were so called friends so I thought. She has even borrowed my house in Vegas. That ad costs $1500-$2000 dollars and after 12 years of testing and tweaking it doesn’t have a positive ROI.
What really sucks is that after 12 years of friendship, borrowing my house, training at my gym, helping her with her business (newspaper and print ads are losing big time
revenue to internet) she sold me out for a couple of bucks by putting these idiots in front of me.
Money over loyalty right? wrong….
That’s when I fired her from my gym and stopped advertising in her publication.
I since hired a full time girl to make calls for us all day and we have seen 4X the ROI as the magazine ad.
When someone doesn’t have “core values” and “strong beliefs” and all they care about is hype and money this is exactly what will happen.
The same thing happened to my good friend Kevin Nations and his partner Frank Kern (marketing legends). They were sold a xyz location with 15K overhead with a build out north
of 80K. Guest who was the realtor? The man’s brother…
Who was the architect: The other man’s father
To this date that location like many others has lost money.
Why….
Because nobody including superstars like Fran Kern, Kevin Nations or even JESUS CHRIST can overcome a 15K overhead for a boot camp.
Moral of the story….
Stick to the basics, keep your cost down, over deliver and be honest. Especially with yourself.
Peace….
This is such a bummer.
I think I just feel bad for the younger trainers who really want good information. They want to know the truth. They want a mentor and examples of true success.
These good-intentioned young trainers are all too often misdirected with really well executed fluff, manipulation and hype.
It’s a shame.
They get let down over time. The real issue (aside from getting taken for a ride) is that bad business practices hurt the rest of the fitness industry. Over time, trainers aren’t sure who to trust, or what to believe.
If we make mistakes, we need to own it. (I’ve done plenty of “owning” over the last few years.) The results have been better than I could have imagined.
Collaboration, and not exclusion, is key.
Sam, think about this….
You and I “technically” are competitors.
We both have successful boot camp systems. We both offer email and mobile marketing services, we both coach trainers….
Yet, since you have I have been friends and have been collaborating, our businesses have each grown 20+% in the last 6 months. Interesting, huh?
I propose that all of us (YES, ALL OF US), rise above doing things at a remedial level. Let’s raise our game.
Let’s ask more of ourselves, and each other.
The fitness industry is awesome, and we all love it.
Let’s do the right things, for the right reasons….. right now!
Thanks
JSE
@John: I wish I could put things as nicely as you. I couldn’t say it any better than that. That’s why the who’s who of the fitness industry
they are ALL going to be at my event on Jan 20-21st. I definitely couldn’t have said what you said any better. Let’s work together for the
betterment of this industry.
This blog is the truth, I always knew you were the king of chino hills and now you proved it with this Post.
Thanks for being real and upfront about this, you put it out there and it is now up to the culprits to prove you wrong!
Great post Sam. This guy USED to be my coach until I fired his ass. My boot camp has tripled since hiring you. All of this guys tactics I would question then say to myself, “they must work, Steve says they do, he wouldn’t lie” BULLSHIT. Doorhangers, human billboards, leadboxes, etc, all shit.
Thanks for keeping it real Sam.
Wow This is awesome!
These guys have a “vision” for their business in 2020 or whatever. Here is my vision for their business model.
It will be known as the Mcdonald’s of the fitness industry. these bootcamps will not be run by “fitness professionals” but by “marketers” or “wannabe entrepenuers” who aren’t really in the fitness industry, but in the “make myself money by owning a franchise” business.
They will get plenty of people in the door at first but will quickly lose them when they don’t produce real results.
They will drain and kill the bootcamp industry. What real fit pro’s today call bootcamp will evolve into something else tha tis greater and bootcamps will be associated with hype, low quality training that they can get for free at the gym.
The real fitness professionals will be running large group training under a diferent “name” other than bootcamps at a higher quality, with individualized nutrition, not crappy 1200 calories for women and 1700 calories for men meal plans.
They will dominate teh bootcamp industry because real fitness professionals will have evolved beyond bootcamps into something more and most likely at a higher price point than they could ever compete with.
Boom!
It’s funny. I wish I could articulate my points as eloquently as JSE or for that matter Sam. John… dialogue among competitors in the reason growth happens… healthy competition always breeds a better revenue environment. It’s amazing how a bunch of us are all coaches to fitness pros and yet all of us want the other to do well… and because of that we are all doing much better because of our alliance. BTW… Sam, how did you hear Jesus Christ was looking to open a Bootcamp?
Omg! Yes I’ve been saying this for years! @john @sam and everyone else:! The fitness industry and we on the Internet professing to help trainers ,Need to work together ,not in competition! Has the time really come? We will see:)
Love this post Sam! Keeping everyone honest and calling out all the crap going on in the industry.
I don’t understand why people would lie to themselves like that or cut corners, temporarily they might look good but they won’t last the truth comes out eventually. I agree with Ben on the testimonials, how do over a 100 boot camps have the same testimonials? Can you not get your own clients in shape and get a testimonial?
I appreciate what you do Sam. I wish a lot more people would call it like it is. Thanks for keeping people honest and calling out the scams. Can’t wait for January 20 at your workshop brother!
WTF
THIS GUY CAN’T MIND HIS OWN BUSINESS
Sam why are you starting trouble again.
WHO THE HELL PUT YOU IN CHARGE???
Cant you just let thing be the way they are….
….. and continue to let me……I mean hard working trainers continue to believe in the hype and let me…..I mean let trainers just go on believing that these tactics actually work and that maybe someday it will all work out and that I…..I mean “trainers” will finally one day make some real money and stop thinking that I……I mean that they are damn crazy and must be stupid and doing something wrong because we….I mean the trainers are somehow screwing the simple process up so we must be I mean trainers must be idiots.
By the way, it was great seeing you in LA brotha
@ Alberto:
LMAO my brother. Someone has to clean up the industry. The fitness industry is just been looking the other and letting S*** slide as if they didn’t happen.
This is my profession. Here is the difference..
I AM NOT A MARKETER IN THE FITNESS INDUSTRY, I AM SOMEONE IN THE FITNESS INDUSTRY WHO KNOWS HOW TO MARKET VERY WELL.
You digg?
So if no one is willing to stand up I will be glad to lead the charge against anything or anyone who is going to try to take advantage of the industry.
Thanks again for the tickets and your generosity. You’re the man and keep on CRUSHING IT.
Sam thanks for calling out the BS in this industry. It’s time people just study hard, learn from the best and work their asses off instead of trying tricks and shortcuts. It’s just like us telling our clients that weight loss pills will actually work. Thanks to guys like you, Big Chris, JSE and the rest of the KBL crew I think we’re gonna be all set. Keep doin what you do!
Ha – I declared my bootcamp #1 in my areas way before they were – but I then busted my ass to back them up – my bootcamp in Queens has more paying members than the ones that have been here for 7 years plus, in less than 30 days since opening –
BUT …..
what I did not do was invent a false survey to give myself the credential, and then tell my business coach to create a false video trying to hype others. I’ve got big balls, but stand behind them and legitimately back up my words until they are FACT.
There’s just something about how these guys do business that is sooo stomach turning. Sam, since you took off with super-trainer a few months ago, this is the only site I’ve visited in the business, and in my opinion the only one anyone needs to visit. Absolutely no B.S. Call it like you see it. P.S. You are just so much happier when you don’t have to rely on bullshit marketing in order to deceive people. Hopefully one day all of these folks will get that.
Stinks that this even has to be an issue.
If you actually get RESULTS, then transparency shouldn’t even be an issue.
Honesty, integrity, and truly caring about what you do and the people you’re helping will outlast ANY others who are in it for the wrong reasons or operate with sketchy tactics.
The truth always surfaces eventually- let’s just all do it right the first time around.
i totally agree
Hi Sam, You probably have no idea who the hell I am but I wanted to thank you for all the posts you’ve been putting up, especially the”The Law of Hype” posts. Now I was in Steve Hochman’s mastermind about a yr and didn’t last for not even the full year bc I saw right through his BS.
My story – a miserable corporate operations manager in NY who was tired of the “career” and wanted something more in her life. I have been in the fitness industry part time (fitness instructor in many big
chain gyms for 5 yrs) I hired a business coach on Long Island who had hired Steve as his coach for bootcamp. I saw a “light” and decided quit my day gig and become partners with my coach to start a bootcamp.
BAD IDEA!! My coach and partner did SHIT, made me do all the work and hit on me (gross) and Steve just sucked. Here’s why he sucked: I realized that I didn’t want to start a bootcamp midway through his mastermind coaching. In fact, I just think I was glamoured by the idea bc i was desperate for a way out of my job. But it wasn’t my dream at all. At least not at the time. So I had an idea to do something, told Steve about it over a coaching call, and he basically made me feel like shit and that I wasn’t going to succeed unless I started a boot camp, specifically a Fit Body Bootcamp. Well that’s when I stopped emailing him, and going to his mastermind.
A few months later I jumped into Chris Mccomb’s coaching and couldn’t be happier. He at least’s listens to me and adjusts his coaching based on my needs and dreams. Now I have a website busting my ass to get a following, and am working on getting my own classes going (mostly teach cardio kickboxing) so I can get out of these big gym chains.
Yes, I’m still a novice and I still really don’t know what the hell I’m doing but at least I feel more comfortable now that I know there are guys like you and Chris who really care about people and are not gonna steer them in the wrong direction.
I normally am not a “comment poster” nor do I always reach out to others in the industry but I felt I had to comment here .
THANK YOU
This was the response I got from them.
Bedros Keuilian, Keuilian Inc. First off, maybe you should call West Coast Magazine at (909) 390-5727 and ask them yourself if they really awarded Chino HIlls FBBC at the #1 fitness boot camp in Chino Valley. ANSWER: YES. Being voted #1 has NOTHING to do with being around the longest or charging the least. DELIVERING Results, being talked about by the community, and adding value to the lives of the folks in the community is what makes a business surpass all others – even is they’re only 13 months old. And for the sake of all things holy Jay… do the research man or get sucked in by lies, twisting of the truth, and mis-information.
Yes Jay O,
When you get caught lying and twisting the truth you should get defensive. This is an old tactic he used to talk about back in the day.
Marketing has changed. We have to be transparent. Anyone can pay for things.
Proof is in the pudding my friend ;)
Hundreds of people can’t be wrong
Regarding keuilian inc’s comment above:
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001564865/223470580_YouMad_xlarge.jpeg
Incredible post, Its hard to believe that a REAL business has to FAKE results! Thank you for the post and telling it like you see it!
Jay O,
Nice talking to you today on the phone. I didn’t know that you were a FORMER FITBODY BOOT CAMP Owner.
Keep crushing it my friend
Hey Sam,
I am currently a Fit Body Bootcamp owner. I am really not thrilled with the franchise, i feel like i pay 500 a month for what they call a high conversion website. But honestly i have got more clients from referral’s than that website. Also they wanted me to pay an additional 200 bucks for a facebook fan page, now they decided to do it for free. Anyway i was wondering if i was legally obligated to stay on board, i didn’t sign anything but i am sure i agreed to the terms when i paid online i asked them what i signed up for they told me i signed up for 2 years, but when i asked for the contract, they never sent me anything.
Thanks,
I was overpromised and then in my opinion underdelivered. Oh yeah the DVD’s they sent for FBBC i prob only learned something off of one of them, the rest was all fluff. Lead Box sucks in my opinion, those 100 dollar plastic gift card’s waste of my money, i am sure Bedros would say i just implemented it wrong, or that i don’t have the right mindset or relationship with money. LOL I did have 10 hairdressers handing out those cards but nobody was calling or coming in, so i just converted hairdressers into paying clients and still got tons of referral’s without the giftcards. I have been in the industry since 96 i have done lead box’s, tent cards all kinds of referral programs over the years, i have even had those Custom Built Training yo yo’s in my gym when i was a GM of big Health club. I wonder if Bedros was the guy behind the scene of those used car salesmen’s. I think the avg trainer with no sales or marketing experience would learn some pretty good stuff from them, but i think they overcharge. When i do decide to get off the FBBC franchise, could you recommend a website person to get me a high conversion website without having to pay $500.00 a month?
Sam, i was totally blown away to get a call from you! You have definitely earned my trust!
Looking forward to improving my bootcamp the honest, legitimate and honorable way.
No bologna or hype…
Thanks Jay O,
I don’t hide behind my computer. I am a read dude. Let me know if there is anything I can do for you my man.
Okay I just read this blog post and I am super confused on what I have read. Not the posting of being number one but the flack that Fit Body Boot Camp is getting and Bedros K. I would really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you SAM or a short email. It would mean so much to me, you may not be able to but hey FEAR is what they have told me to put away and just apply it so I am asking. Your good friend John Spencer Ellis was kind enough one day to call this Canadian boy and give me a nice American warning. So I am hoping I can get two nice American guys to give this Calgary boy a shout!
Cheers
Todd, Calgary, AB
Hey Todd,
Sure thing. Let me know how I can help you. My email is sam@super-trainer.com
I am here to help
Annonymous
You don’t have to pay them if they’re not making you any money. How you gonna pay and increase your operarting cost for something that doesn’t work? So many (myself included) aren’t giving jack shit to these assholes because they have robbed us and refuse to apologize.
By the way, has anyone read Bedros’ blog post on 13 myths about franchises? Dude has the nerve to say that franchises don’t hold your hand or guarantee success. That’s funny because last year Fit Body Bootcamp sure made that EXACT promise to its potential buyers. Now they get caught lying their ass off and all they can do is try and retract those statements and pretend they never said them.
First it was
“FBBC is guaranteed to get you on pace for 6 figures in 90 days!”
But now…
“Franchises are not there to make you successful because you bought in!”
First it was
“Go with FBBC because we will hold your hand throughout the process and make sure you are a successful business owner!”
But now…
“we aren’t there to hold your hand!”
Sad.
Annonymous
You can go with the guys at fitnesswebsiteformula.com
Or work with Lynn Van Dyke at personaltrainerwebsitedesign.com and get it optimized by Neil, Sam’s guy. I almost had mine optimized by his guy except Sam and I are sort of competitors LOL
Neil does good work, I hear. I met Craig Kastning of Chi town bootcamps (good guy) and he told me they optimize it so well it shows up even when you search for it outside of your town.
FBBC’s optimization sucks. They do it territorial based. Which is crap because you are limited to ranking for ONE town. What if you want clients from surrounding towns? they can’t do that for you because of your contract.
Plus their website doesn’t convert worth a shit. It’s generic, has no personalization, is corporate as hell, and even if you provide your own testimonials (which I did so as not to use their canned testimonials of Jori, Carmen, etc.), they edit out your name from the testimonials and make them look equally generic as the bullshit they use on their other sites. FUUUUUUUUUUUCK that. People constantly asked me if those were my real clients. YES THE FUCK THEY WERE but FBBC altered my client testimonials to make them seem generic and like they could have gotten those from anywhere and paid people to do them. What bullshit!!
Plus, idk why they took salescopy off their sites. In my opinion copy is very important to overcome initial objections inside the prospect’s head. But no, they think their “corporate pull” as bedros puts it, is enough to get clients.
@Anonymous: I am a firm believer that if you agreed to something them you must follow through.
But I also believe that…
If something is not giving you the ROI (return on your investment) and it’s costing you therefore costing your family and your children then I say get rid of it.
Having said that I would contact the people and explain very nicely that it’s not working out for you and what can be done.
If a company is legitimate they will understand.
I agree with the recommendation of Eirith on the web people